Podcast Show #2

The Boiling Frogs Presents Russ Tice

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Russ Tice discusses the latest on NSA’s warrantless wiretapping of Americans and the implications of this program, the US Congress abdicating its oversight role and his experiences in dealing with them, the US mainstream media, his let-down by President Obama, our current speedy move toward a police state, and more.

Russell Tice is a Former NSA Intelligence Analyst & Capabilities Operations Officer Specializing in Offensive Information Warfare (O-IW). During his nearly 20 year career with various US government agencies he conducted intelligence missions related to the Kosovo War, Afghanistan, and the USS Cole Bombing in Yemen. In 2005 Tice helped spark a national controversy over claims that the NSA and the DIA were engaged in unlawful and unconstitutional wiretaps on US citizens, and later admitted that he was one of the sources that were used in the NY Times’ reporting on the wiretap activity in December 2005. On July 26, 2006, he was subpoenaed to appear before a federal grand jury regarding violations of federal law.

Here is our guest Russ Tice unplugged!


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  1. Cast aside any doubts, you are an American hero. Thanks for another thoughtful post!

  2. Anonymous says:

    Bravo! MANY of us "know" the feeling of what you all have been through. Even more are now aware and more will become so. Sibel, Thank you and again, Bravo.

  3. Anonymous says:

    Have I told you lately that I love you and all you do? Great show. Thank you. Russ Tice deserve a medal for his courage!

  4. Anonymous says:

    Posted on whitehouse.gov as well. I just reviewed the unclassified version of the IG Intel Report, and found several glaring discrepancies. I will cite my sources and express concern that as a non-violent Quaker, I know that I was put on the terrorist watch list, with no apology or explanation. I listened to a Russel Tice interview, former NSA employee, read into 219 blackworld programs. It is up to President Obama to exercise statesmanship and integrity when this is at variance with political calculations regarding our U.S. constitutional rights. The intro to the IG report and later amendments suggest that only foreign persons of interest were authorized to be targeted, with exceptions allowed within the U.S. of non-local U.S. persons. At the 123realchange blog, one of the bloggers worked directly with Mark Klein at the San Francisco office where emails were intercepted. He correctly points out that these were not foreign communications, but only those within the U.S. – in other words, U.S. citizens. That al Qaeda was given as the rationalization for these losses of personal liberty is disputed by author Peter Lance in his book 'Triple Cross'. Patrick Fitzgerald and Jamie Gorelick are alleged to have interfered with prevention of the 9-11 attacks, which were predicted as early as 1995. This suggests that Able Danger, Carnivore, and Echelon are not in place for protection of U.S. citizens, but rather for increased loss of constitutional rights of U.S. citizens, and are failing to do the job of correctly assessing terrorist activity. Whether that is strictly because the program remains to be refined with better algorithms, begins to be suspect according to Lance's documentation. The recent passage of the whistleblower bill does not protect honest whistleblowers, but rather continues to undermine their ability and does not protect their security clearances.


  5. Metemneurosis says:

    So, you guys were discussing how the 'law' that says the government can't classify criminal programs is really just a executive order. But isn't the state secrets privilege just a power claimed by the executive branch? Specifically it's not a law. So where does that leave us? The Justice Dept. (or whoever) claims state secrets privilege – based on vague parameters they claim are granted to the Executive branch in the constitution – to hide the fact that someone went against another EO which says they can't hide criminal acts by classifying them. As far as I know there's nothing to force a President to follow a past EO. So doesn't this all depend on the judicial branch's willingness to accept state secrets? Specifically as we move forward it depends on what precedents will be set based on the contours of various cases and what they require the executive to try to do with the privilege to protect themselves and on how the judiciary reacts to these claims. And it looks like the Supreme Court doesn't want to touch it. So it's up to the lower courts unless, that is, congress is ever willing to step in.

    In this regard it'll be informative to watch the al-Haramain case. The judge in the case has already declared that FISA trumps state's secrets, which allows him to review classified evidence, as per FISA, despite the governments claim of state's secrets privilege. This link give's a good review of how the case is proceeding.


    I think it reconvenes in early Sept. or late Aug. But I'm not sure how much this will really eat into the governments ability to claim state's secrets in general. Any opinion Sibel?

    In my opinion the best way to handle classification would be to use the principle of checks and balances. No one branch should have final authority over what gets classified. Classification is a necessary evil in a democracy and it should definitely be up for review by either congress or the judiciary in every case. I'm just not certain how that would work. If we had to wait on a whistleblower before another branch would review the classification of some program that wouldn't be good enough without some serious whistleblower protection. On the other hand reviewing everything automatically would be a potentially impossible task. Maybe we need a new classification court that does nothing but review classification of programs and documents. But that might be impractical for other reasons. One problem being that they'd probably be appointed by the President. But nothing along these lines will ever happen anyway so I guess this is all academic.

  6. Anonymous says:

    Amy Goodman democracynow.org , wednesday July 29th interview with Christopher Pyle, Whistleblower Who Sparked Church Hearings of 1970s, on Military Spying , the creation of 'fusion centers' involving nationwide networks state/municiple police, military and other intelligence sharing [including private corporations] funded by homeland security. Interoperability.
    Really good interview.

  7. It is generally accepted that most, if not all phone conversations in the US are already recorded.


    As such, we are apparently 'doomed' by the guest's own definition.

    Hearing terms like 'digital warehousing' from someone in that sort of position is telling of how little these people know – they are forced to draw equivalencies to things they already know of, having no idea of what is really going on.

    People make millions doing little more than Windows Updates for their clientele.

  8. Edit_Mommies says:

    He's gonna dip his balls in it.

  9. Mizgîn says:

    I noticed that Tice mentioned no one is getting picked up by the regime and disappeared yet.

    Well, when that day comes, here's a piece of advice: When the state comes to take you–whether from your residence, office, kid's daycare, or wherever–make sure you yell out your name really loudly as they drag you to their vehicle. That way the people standing around watching will remember that the state took you. Then no one will believe the state when it comes back later and says you "disappeared".

  10. Metemneurosis says:

    On whether they're already disappearing us, obviously that's true but here's a little more evidence of the slow heating on the way to boil


    And here's another scary step towards a police state

    "Napolitano [head of Homeland Security] urged a 'much broader society response' in which the public helps curb a growing phenomenon of so-called home-grown terrorism. . . 'You are the ones who know when something is not right in your communities,' . . . Napolitano even called on children to join an effort previously shouldered by police and other security services. . . . However, she stressed she was not advocating "a culture of spying on one another."


  11. Anonymous says:

    I listened until he said something about ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACK. I don't recall any genuine terror attacks ever happening on our soil. What is he talking about? Peter B is my all time favorite radio commentator.

  12. Anonymous says:

    In the 1980's the sheriff in Rapid City, South Dakota complained to me that the Feds were compromising local law enforcement with direct accountability to citizens by providing high tech gear in exchange for jurisdiction from Washington or other remote headquarters. I was working with the Lakota/Sioux at the time. Take it from there.

    “In more recent years, surveillance of Quaker groups, the infiltration of Quaker groups in Florida, who were planning to protest military recruitment in their local high school. These are the people who, according to the TALON reports, are considered to be potential threats to military security.” From Amy Goodman interview with Christopher Pyle.

    “Since 2003, InfraGard Alliances and the FBI said that they have developed a TRUST-based public-private sector partnership to ensure reliability and integrity of information exchanged about various terrorism, intelligence, criminal, and security matters. It supports FBI priorities in the areas of counterterrorism, foreign counterintelligence, and cybercrime.” From wikipedia.

    In 2008, InfraGard was well in place targeting activist communities in Oregon. It was being run through Christian churches and the National Guard where code words were less likely to be picked up by the counterculture, which tends to avoid churches like the plague. Case in point, one high school that Quakers targeted to present equal opportunity info against the war refused to allow them entrance. At the same time teachers in the school were pressured to have coffees for recruiters in their classroom. The members of this particular school were working class with a Christian bias that represented the typical believe in Satan, and give us your money type. Are we there yet?


  13. Edit_Mommies says:

    @mizgin severe emotional states insure those which are taken can be returned and any changes, comfortingly undetected. That is why we ask for some sort of honor system regarding the State Secrets privilege. A hurt child replies "LIFE cannot keep secrets". Then see what that child does to everybody cooperating with natural elements in time and surrounding life. It's the bloody lesson being taught to your team. It is a like a vortex of dumb ruining years and years of precise human application. The lesson is a billowing facet of manipulation. The individuals within your team take the lesson and prey on one another. These things start out innocent enough. Sibel prescribing anti-bodies for the hopeful inception of any distended emotions. The antidote so far from the rest of us not even our own Government can accept animals humping our legs making us queer. YOU GOT TICKS< YOU GOT TICKS RUNNNNNNNNNNRUNNNNNNNNNNN!

  14. Sibel Edmonds says:

    Greetings. I had a pretty chaotic week and will have a more chaotic one next, but I've been reading your comments and e-mails regularly. I'll be leaving the country for 4 weeks next weekend, so the positing will be 'lite' but still there.

    Elvis: Thank you. Long time no see; good to have you back.

    Simon: Thak you for posting, disseminating the link; greatly appreciated.

    Metemneurosis: Right on target. It's not a law. It was left to the discretion of the courts, and due to these 'un-American' filthy and intimidated federal judges, every case has been ruled in favor of the gov. This is why we've been campaigning to bring it before the congress and have them declare it either unconstitutional or greatly limit it's uses and abuses. Riiiiighhhhht, with this congress?!!!!! So that option is also out;-) If you want to find out more read Prof. Weaver's academic paper, and or Lou Fisher's latest book on SSP, and past statements from Mark Zaid and ACLU…The emptywheel site will only taint or misguide you. They should cover Scooter Libby, or the latest Cocacola dieting effects, or…and leave the topics they are ignorant upon to others….

    Anon re: Amy Goodman show: Read the transc. good one. Also the piece by her on Antiwar yesterday….In line with my Police State series….

    Zach: Peter B interviewed Mark Klein; his site: peterbcollins.com you may want to check it out. Klein has a new book (self published: good for him!). I'll post a piece on it this weekend…

    Mizgin: I am your fan! Every year thousands of mothers/sisters/brothers gather in 'Taksim Square' in Istanbul, holding their 'disappeared' loved ones' pictures…so very sad….

    Sorry for all the '…' and terrible grammar/puctuation. This is me on the run, with my daughter on my lap banging on my keyboard and protesting!!

  15. Anonymous says:

    Sibel, you're a Hero. Please accept that I also knew about 911 back in the mid-90's from being in a family for more than 26 years who are CIA Assets and directly involved in laundering money into property.

    There is a lot more than needs to be said but now isn't a good time.

    Marty Didier
    Northbrook, IL

  16. Hi Sibel – glad to see the others agreeing with your "hero" status 🙂

    Marty – is it believed that a plan to false flag our country into a police state was well underway (already) in the mid 90s?

    I don't get over to the site very often Sibel, sometimes I have to try to forget how bad things really are.

    I don't think the average German was as aware of his/her country as we are today. I hope the worst is not to come, but I'm having doubts. A woman calling into a Dallas radio show with Alex Jones as a guest suggested that she hopes that after Obamacare comes they can put Alex away and get him the help he needs. Something tells me a lot of us who think in any way outside of the "accepted" view will be getting "medical" help.


  17. I meant – average German in the second world war… BTW

  18. Edit_Mommies says:


    Like Jewish children look and grow differently in New York and they are happier? Completely unrelated the part about making the remnants of the original city an under city at the mercy of large developments, built right atop the old buildings? Instead of NY I want to change the name to Incredible Hulk if that is alright.

  19. Anonymous says:

    what a smart and brave lady you are, Sibel

  20. Anonymous says:

    Ms. Edmonds, I'm a big fan too-have been for a long time.How about having Coleen Rowley as your guest?

  21. Elvis,

    I really don't think so. There are way too many of us, for that.

  22. Sibel Edmonds says:

    Last Anon: I will certainly have Coleen Rowley! She is one of the first I'll be interviewing after my return…

    Elvis: I am not any kind of hero. Something is wrong with the majority (the sheep), and that makes us the unusual, heroes, nuts, or as you appropriately gave example of 'in need of medical help';-)

    Just posted the updates and announcements for the site. Please check it out and let me know if you have any suggestions…


  23. Spook World Triumphant.

    Hi Ms. Edmonds.

    I listened to your interview with Russ Tice on Friday and was meditating on it for the past couple of days when I ran across this piece by Sen. Feinstein at Huffpo:


    I remember in the late 80's having a bad feeling when both Former CIA director George HW Bush AND Former KGB head Yuri Andropov ascended to power. I thought then about the "Peace of the Spooks".

    Now, after reading your's, Bamford's and Tice's allegations, I see the counterintelligence divisions at both FBI and NSA thoroughly penetrated by the intelligence services of at least FOUR foreign powers; Israel, Turkey, Pakistan and China.

    Am I the only one who is glimpsing a global alliance of intelligence services whose capabilities are aimed, not at each other, but the hapless inhabitants of those nations as well as our own?

    Below, is my reply to another telecom rat on the Feinstein article:

    Quite agree. Another 28-year broadband telecomm expert here as well. The only way Warrantless Wiretaps can work, BY DESIGN AND AS CURRENTLY CONSTRUCTED, is to monitor everything. on the DOMESTIC telecommunications infrastructure. If the targets were strictly overseas circuits AS THE NSA MANDATE SPECIFIES, the secret NSA rooms would be in the Transoceanic cable head and Satellite earth station offices, NOT DOMESTIC SWITCHING OFFICES like 611 Folsom St. San Francisco. Meanwhile, I've read credible reports from more than one whistleblower that journalists were routinely targeted for surveillance along with politicians like THIS PIECE'S AUTHOR.

    Additionally, I've read credible reports stating that the technology used to implement the WWP is being supplied by companies with connections to foreign intelligence services. I've also read reports stating that counterintelligence divisions at both FBI AND NSA have been thoroughly penetrated by the intelligence services of at least 4 different foreign powers. The people who attempted to bring these allegations forward were, instead, hounded out of their jobs and made subject to State Secrets Gag Orders. Who's minding the intelligence store Senator? Certainly NOT YOU.

    Also, Simon, I'm the guy you cited in your first piece. Thank you for including the Infraguard information. I've also been QUITE ALARMED by this latest Fascist maifestation of government/corporate partnership, particularly the revelations of FBI deputization of Corporate Infraguard members including Deadly Force authorizations for their use in "martial law" scenarios.

    The other alarming item for me was the revelation that NSA is feverishly building two NEW data storage facilities to hold the volumes of intercepted communications for later data mining.

  24. When I read the comments on 123 Real Change, I quickly recognize that while I might me "smart" compared to the knuckleheads I run into most days — WOW, I'm just a little infant with some basic language skills.

    Thank you all for your mostly-enlightening comments and please excuse my mostly neophyte-level questions.

    Is it possible that the data gathering is being saved for a day in the future when the laws are (retroactively) changed to allow easier arrest (with general public support) of "dangerous" thinkers?

    BTW – I'm sure you're all aware of Twitter's (lack of) power to educate – here's a picture of the internal tool (called "Trending Topics Admin") used to blacklist any subject that isn't friendly. Funny how AT&T and iPhone manage to stay in the trends day in and day out.



  25. Hi Elvis,

    Hang around with us long enough and your sure to wind up on some no-fly list somewhere. To answer your question about data storage, the answer would be an unqualified "HELL YES!" I forget if it was in Bamford's or Tice's interview, but one of them spotlighted the NSA's current construction plans for TWO new data storage facilities to hold the vast amounts of their intercepts for future data mining since they're running out of space in their current ones.

    Just remember, if and when they pick us all up in the dead of night for being too aware and ask you for your name, reply as follows:

    I am Ivan Denisovitch

    As for me,

    I am Edmond Dantes

  26. Kingfisher says:

    "Is it possible that the data gathering is being saved for a day in the future when the laws are (retroactively) changed to allow easier arrest (with general public support) of "dangerous" thinkers?"

    It is always possible. That said, I don't think it is plausible that that was the intent.

  27. Anonymous says:

    Ishmael, The way things are going with all those lists, there are or will be enough of us on them, (or think we are) to cause serious economic damage. This "may" result in an "indirect" boycott of those industries. Scene 1, Take 1… Dear Mr. Judge, due to secret lists I am or may be on, I was unable to go to the Post Office to get my mail, I couldn't pay my bills, missed april 15th and jury duty too. I can't bank anymore (for this and other reasons), since I am on the no drive list, I cannot work or use public transit. I cannot even walk to work because the ID required for me to carry is unobtainble due to restrictions regarding entering certain buildings. Please understand that I couldn't make my court date due to all of the above. I found out about it from a friend who saw my picture on a poster somewhere. It wasn't my fault. Respectfully; Several Million People P.S. I hope the Pidgeon I tied this message to was able to find you.

  28. Thank you, anon. That was quite elegantly funny. Oh, Watch out for the pigeon shit.

  29. Sibel Edmonds says:

    Anon: Ishmael is right. So very darkly funny!!!!! I had a terribly hectic day and needed this chuckle. Hopefully tomorrow we'll have a surprise press release…A case that came from nowhere…

  30. chrislarkin says:

    Anon: that was funny – but something tells me (revealing my background here) that the models they use for their analytics cover for this.

    On a side note, did anyone else notice that the day that liquids were forbidden from flights, the airports had plenty of new large trash containers and printed signs? The logistics required to accomplish this couldn't be handled in just hours.

    Did that just sound crazy? I hope not too crazy.

    Looking forward to that surprise Sibel – and thanks again for sharing your insight, your actions remind me to work to be a better person with every decision I make. Bless you!

  31. Is there any chance you could include the transcript of what is said? I'm hard of hearing and it's somewhat difficult for me to understand what is being said. I would appreciate it. If not, then maybe a rough summary?

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