BFP Roundtable Takes on Apathy & What Can Be Done About It

The BFP Roundtable takes on the public apathy surrounding the illegal wars of aggression, the extrajudicial drone assassinations, the illegal warrantless wiretapping, and other outrages of our era. Why is the public so passive in the face of such abuses? And what can be done about it? Find out more in this must-see BFP Roundtable discussion.

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  1. Mgrdichian says:

    Best roundtable yet. James is right, apathy is akin to the dogs hitting the lever and nothing happens.
    I have tons to say but I’ll keep a lid on it.
    1) In a world where things go “viral,” “numbers” isn’t the game to be played — originality and creativity are kings.
    2) The majority rarely initiates change, and usually only when the stakes are just too high for too many people, as with the civil rights movement.
    3) You guys are analysts, not activists. Accept your role and keep finding ways to perfect your craft. Processing sources and putting together the “dots” is a far different task from motivating the public into action, and requires different skills.
    4) As with most anything, reaching the right people is more important than reaching the most people. IMO increasing one’s influence is what’s desired, with or without more people.

    There’s a saying in the film business: “Your as good as your last production.” I think if we all take that attitude about ourselves, the rest will fall into place as it should. Another favorite saying: “Courage is contagious.”
    Sibel’s States Secrets Gallery inspired me for a year after it first came out. Things like that…….originality, creativity, courage.

  2. Sorry to criticize right off the bat, but I thought that the dirty word individualism was avoided, along with another very important word, exceptionalism, which I guess was maybe hinted at with the talk of consumerism. Maybe, if the conversation about why there is more apathy in the US than there is in other countries happened AFTER Sibel got going and raised the intensity, it might have been a different story. I don’t know. But, individualism is something that the USA excels at. The USA is the BEST, #1, EXCEPTIONAL at individualism!

    How many times did the other panelists talk about what they could do “collectively”/”as a collective”, etc., but never did the thought that other countries might keep their doors open to each other during a protest, because they are more collectivist, culturally, than the USA? Why did the closest the panel came to the word individualism, was to mention the phrase self-interest?

    Unfortunately, any focus on the word individualism in this discussion, with this panel, I think, would have been too adversarial. But, that’s one kind of radical that needs to happen at BFP, IMHO. We have been considering these presentations of religious individualism for years here now; this conversation would have been a perfect opportunity for an analysis that shows how damaging these political/philosophical branches of individualism, such as libertarianism/”anarco-capitalism” (I put that in quotes so that the people who don’t think it exists will try to understand it to mean what the people who do, or who have done in the recent past, self-identify that way (not me) – think it means)/voluntaryism are? To show that apathy is, of course, a direct result of them, and that’s exactly why the oligarchs are funding such memes, through their distribution centers, such as the Mises Institute. I guess this is my radical, but it should be starting to seem more and more obvious.

    I’m glad it picked up at the end and Sibel was crystal clear about Snowden. Hat’s off to her for that. She been right on the money, with complete integrity, about this story. She took her time and tried to give Snowden a chance to come clean about his intentions and has been thoughtful, not jealous or reactionary. It’s easy to see the strength in her position, because she speaks honestly and with a sound, rational argument.

  3. ccuthbert says:

    Sibel, I would like to enlighten you about parents’ reaction to the common core. This comes from my experience being involved in working for the separation of school and state for about 15 years.
    Essentially, very VERY few parents want to admit to themselves (or to anyone else) that they are harming their children by sending them to gov’t school. That would be tantamount to admitting child abuse. No matter how lousy the school, you hear them always say, “It’s the best school in the X.” Fill in city, county, state, whatever.
    Here’s an example. When my nephew started high school, the neighborhood school was over crowded (?!) so that there were children sitting on the floor for class. There were some other misc problems my sister-in-law described to me and at the end of the list she said, “They call that education?” in an exasperated tone. Then her face froze with the realization of what she had said, and she finished with, “But it’s a great school.”
    Btw. this is not a family that was financially struggling. Her husband earns mid 6 figures and her parents are multimillionaires. They can afford private school. They could afford private tutors, no prob.
    Somehow there is great comfort in the conformity of gov’t school, and buying a house in an expensive neighborhood so you can send your children to the best gov’t school in the X. Nobody can say the obvious, that gov’t schooling is the primary means of population control and that it is abject child abuse.
    Frankly, the idea of soliciting against common core with the goal of protecting one’s own child I find beyond idiotic. Just take your child out of gov’t school. Do it now and your immediate problem is solved. If you want to spread the word with the hope of preventing even more child abuse among the general population and therefore making a better world (not likely) ok.
    My mentor in the Alliance for the Separation of School and State, Marshall Fritz, used to always say, “There’s no point in going fishing where there aren’t any fish.” Sibel, you are fishing at the wrong pond and burning up a lot of emotional energy in the process. My unsolicited (and therefore worthless, I know) advice is that you need to stop wasting your time with these Stepford wives you apparently hang around, take you child out of school and get on with your great work.

  4. wildw123 says:

    Interesting discussion. This issue is an important one to me as often in frustration I think “why don’t people care?!”. I closed my facebook account for this reason, as I noticed an almost complete lack of feedback on any ‘unpleasant’ issue that pertains to reality and I lost motivation to carry on doing it. If you want to have information you can find it anyway with little effort. Though it taught me something.

    I think most of the material in this dissussion affects the problem of apathy. It’s not a definite analysis but it does not pretend to be either. To me it served to think again about the topic.

    Social and political systems aside, on a personal and individual level there’s quite obvious a psychological and philosophical element to this.

    Apathy is about the complete lack of emotions and thus strong values to act upon and fight for. It is about passivity. it seems..

    Because its also a chosen approach that prefers blindness to sight. Or it’s about just waching something else instead with the same purpose as blindness (like Sibel’s Golden retriever…-:) It’s a state of lowered consciousness. “If I don’t look at something, it does not exist”. And yes, of self-protective helplessness. (regardless of the question if it is ‘learned/taught’ or not, because I think people can also teach themselves).

    Apathy is often self-protective. It looks like a better alternative to panic and anxiety at times and certainly when you see that you do not have the power to change what causes the anxiety. How do I know? Well, because I fall into that trap at times too of course. But it’s important to be aware of it.

    This site and other good ones often has articles that evoke anxiety in me. It’s healthy that thit sort of anxiety searches for some action to solve it. And when you can’t, it frustrates it’s tempting to just avoid seeing and knowing all together. It’s not a wise choice but the attitude is very very frequent in humanoids. (though we have the capicity to do this probably to temporarily survive very cruel situations, so it might be useful at times)

    However this much is true, and it’s why this strategy will never work out in the long run: if you are unaware you cannot even decide if you can do something about it and if so, what to do.

    As for solutions in general I think creating awareness is very often more than half thesolution done anyway. But it takes the participation of every one person to be willing to listen and see or watch the other way.

    My 2 cents.

  5. Phillip Kokesh says:

    Excellent ensemble for getting the info out. Sibel, I love your passion…! James, the detailed information on the experiment with the dogs and the electric shocks was fascinating… Of course it applies to humanoids as well. All of you performed at your best in this show. You took different points of view, all of which were thoughtful and legitimate. Bravo for a great effort! Surely I am not alone in seeing the great strides in human-to-human communication being made here…

  6. Very good, guys. I particularly found James’ analysis of Seligman’s (sic) dogs regarding “learned helplessness” most interesting when one considers that there is a history to this. By this, I am talking about the Tavistock Institute at Sussex in England as being THE harbinger to psychological warfare that promotes apathy and helplessness. Evidently, Tavistock through Prudential Assurance ran bombing studies on TARGETED population and its effects with future survival. Those studies bore out a term for such controlled apathy called “Long Term Penetration Strain.” I think this is exactly the same program going on at many different psychological and sociological levels that allow our citizenry to continue to sit undeterred on the electrical grid with not even a whimper for defiance.

  7. Carolyn Farnell says:

    How to go Sibel!! I’m with you. You are an inspiration. I so appreciate your humanity. You even gave us a few enjoyable belly laughs. One thing none of you touched on is American fakery. Most American women at least are so fake. And they associate with others equally fake, so they don’t even know they are fake. They think they are all being very real. They are emotionally dead. They don’t really feel anything about anyone. It’s all a big fake. They have no genuine compassion. They don’t really care what happens to anyone but themselves (which of course includes those they are dependent on). All the emphasis is on class bullshit, $$$, and material things. Where did it start? I don’t know.

    It has been my experience that most Americans never develop beyond teenage mentality and clinging to their respective peer groups. They are unable to listen to different opinions, and so are unable to learn from others. I think they are basically insecure. They don’t know what love is, having never experienced it. American children are related to as possessions to be manipulated for the pleasure and pride of the parents.

    My experience as a citizen of USA from birth, is very much the same as you describe yours. I don’t know how to talk with these people either, except to put on the same fakery which I refuse to do. And it’s so true that they are all about gluten-free and cleanses, yoga and chanting, diets, exercise, getting-having-and spending money while searching for sales and cutting coupons. It seems the weather is the only safe topic of conversation. I hear a lot of subtle self-praise, and cutting down/gossip about others.

    They degrade what I say about anything important ( i.e. floride, GMOs, Agenda 21, common core, Fukushima, real world news, you name it), by calling me a conspiracy theorist, which abruptly cuts off any conversation. Others have told me outright that they don’t want to hear about “all this negative stuff”. They say they like to focus on the positive. What can you say to that.

    And maybe apathy breeds apathy? Have you listened to Alan Watt (not Alan Watts; they are two very different men). According to Alan Watt, the apathy in America has been created to serve the purposes of the ruling elite.

    Peace and Joy to you all at Boiling Frogs. Keep up the good work.

  8. InfinitePossibilities says:

    I was someone who was brainwashed by our social-cultural-political-power structure growing up and didn’t start to view the world differently until I was 44. I was affected significantly by the financial collapse in 2008 and was in a hopeless state for two years thereafter. Naively, I didn’t have a clue that the global bankers had anything to do with the collapse. I believed the politicians scare tactics that the BANKS needed to be bailed out, and I bought it. Seemingly unrelated, one evening in 2010 I discovered a TED talk on youtube about the amazing properties of mushrooms (the non-haulicinogenic varieties) by Paul Stamets and that video ended up being the entrance to the rabbit hole I’ve been toiling around in four 4 years now. Paul wasn’t talking about the global power elite, but his topic on mushrooms resonnated with me because it was fascinating and it offered some tangible grassroots solutions to growing food and medicine. He was a very affable and passionate character and so perhaps that helped me take to his message. That talk in turn led me to discover a book on permaculture by David Holmgren, which was one of the most honest book I had ever read on the subject of “sustainable” (organic-based) agriculture (not the kind of sustainability that is so flippantly tossed around these days). David’s message was a little more blunt that Pauls and a little more difficult to grasp, but I had an interest in the subject and there was a strong element of honesty in his concepts and writing style (as an aside, David’s brother was a staunch 9/11 truther and hearing about that nudged me in that direction). After David, I stumbled upon Terrence McKenna, who was an affable character and great orator altough he may have “spinned the yarn” now and again (Jan Irvin has even said he was a CIA operative). However, some aspects of his talks lead me to question the power structures entrenched in our society, and for that I can only be greatful to him. Some of Terrance’s talks lead me even deeper into the rabbit hole, and after some time lead me to the Corbett Report and Boiling Frogs Post. The common thread that attracted me to all these enlightened folks and websites was, for the most part, a search for truth. It seemed the deeper down I went the harder the hammers were hitting, in general, although there was still great variation in style. Would I have been turned away from the mesages of James, Sibel, Guillermo and Peter had I been introduced to their ideas at the entrance to the rabbit hole? Is it substance alone that attracts or does style matter? Hard to say. But I feel in my own circumstances there has been a natural evolution from folks discussing less controversial topics to those with deeper truths (easing into it – kind of like a boiling frog but in a good way). In this regard and in my case, it’s taken all kinds of people and styles to bring me along. And for that I thank you for following your own hearts and minds, and expressing yourself in the best and most effective way you know how.

  9. Mark Passehl says:

    All this talk and action on the domestic front about cleansing and cleaning from the inside out suggests that western suburbia knows its married to the mob and living the good life on the back of dirty money and rotten deeds. A host of diverse conspiracies sounds and is ridiculous without a unifying and realistic theme. Before plunging into the immediacy of current and fearsome issues, take the time to explain to people what the City of London gangster state (or GangIntern) is, and why so influential. If you dont really know then really find out. The essentials dont take long to convey, because adults know how gangsters operate on the smaller scale. You’ll probably find that most people are interested in the big picture, and receptive. In fact they often seem to be relieved, like a tremendous burden of guilt and doubt has been lifted from their shoulders. Then they can start to cut down on the personal enemas, and begin to think honestly and purposefully about applying them at the political and cultural level. In other words about positive, unifying action and co-operation, rather than getting snappy and defensive.
    We dont need to be grateful for what weve got — as people did in feudal times when most wealth consisted of precious (rare) metals and the fruits of agriculture ; but understand that the vast new wealth generated by industrial technology has never been allowed to link up with an honest or plain normal monetary system. War is no longer necessary for a nation to prosper. And in fact every nation. On the other hand the GangIntern can only maintain itself by orchestrating incessant wars and perpetually recurring crises.

  10. CuChulainn says:

    Doug Valentine has done a couple interviews with Ryan Dawson; he points to the complicity of USA citizens in the activities of CIA etc.

  11. kmwakak8 says:

    The human condition can be summed up in 3 words: “Self Centered Fear”

  12. So I guess the BFP celebrity colon cleansing secrets column and the reiki healing for whistleblowers podcast I was thinking about suggesting are out of the question… 😉

    Seriously though, the BFP Roundtable podcast series has been consistently awesome and this was no exception. Thank you Peter, Guillermo, Sibel, James, and Andrew for making these podcasts thought provoking, constructive, and even a bit fun. Sibel in particular has a gift for discussing frustrating and discouraging topics in a way where I can still get a couple of laughs and generally watch with a smile on my face. This is no small feat considering the critical thinking and no fluff policy which BFP tends to exemplify. There’s no shortage BS to investigate analyze and expose. Coming up with ways to confront these problems and the apathy that goes along with them is a lot harder, but it’s one of the most important tasks any of us within the irate minority can take on if we want to change things for the better. I applaud these roundtable discussions for taking on that task. Thank you and keep up the great work =]

  13. Iosua Bray says:

    I agree with Sibel about the need for the raising the intensity of the message. The truth of the matter is that americans who vote for either wing are sanctioning murder, plunder and rape on a massive scale. If the true nature of what perpetrated in “our” name was shown to the average american, it would make for quite the wake up call!

    • ccuthbert says:

      Or would it be a wake up call, Iosua? Just before Iraq 2.0, i was at a sears talking to the appliance salesman, and some one of us mentioned something about the war coming and he made a comment of approval. I said to him, “You know there will be women and children under those bombs,” to which he replied, “yea, so what?” Needless to say, i didn’t buy a gd refrigerator from that disgusting excuse for a human being.

      As my wise, young son reminds me, as long as ‘Merikans have cell phones that make waffles for breakfast, they simply won’t give a flying… unless and until the food runs out or there’s a draft, there can’t be a wake up call.

  14. andrei_tudor says:

    My feeling is that there’s another factor that contributes to the state of apathy, which has not been mentioned in the podcast, or the comments I’ve read so far. It has been touched on by Obama’s recent speech at West Point, when he said that America is the “exceptional” nation. I’ve heard it expressed in many different ways, such as “a light unto the world”, “doing God’s work”, etc. The implied message behind all these formulations is that America is, for all its faults, the pinnacle of humanity, and as such, it is illogical to revolt against its system, because it is the best system that the human race has been able to come up with. Yes, it is not perfect, but it is the best expression of the forces of good in this world, and the alternatives are so much worse – the barbarians that “hate us for our freedom”. It is a message that’s very easy to accept because it is self-flattering. It also helps to saturate the cultural space with villains and heroes, to paint the world as a stage where good fights evil, to cut out all the nuances – which is what Hollywood does in most of its movies.

    I grew up in communist Romania, where the official party message was very similar to the American one, but over there people knew that it was bullshit – so a revolution kept brewing until it actually happened. The main difference was, of course, the desperate economic situation, which made it impossible for the propaganda to work.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that material comforts are a required ingredient for keeping the population under control, but not the only one – there is a spiritual side to people that needs to be appeased as well. I don’t believe that they would be so apathetic if they realized that their material comforts come from murdering and pillaging others.

    • andrei_tudor.

      I think you are correct about exceptionalism. I think that feeds into individualism as well. Americans grow up saying a pledge of allegiance to the “flag”. They are brainwashed with explanations of their history that excuse genocide with “manifest destiny”. Part of being exceptional is learning that Americans are supposed to dream of individual success, pulling themselves up “by their own bootstraps”.

      I think the anti-collectivist exceptionalist brain washing now takes many shapes and comes from unexpected places. Even some sources that are thought of as alternative.

  15. ccuthbert says:

    OK, here’s another story for you. I have a friend who years ago was going on and on about that Hitler Milosevic–this is Clinton’s Lewinsky war, for those of you born yesterday. Anyway, i decided to make a stand on this bc he was being such an idiot telling me how “we” had to go to war to protect the people and get that Hitler Milosevic. I never really believed that people fell for the propaganda so hard like this, and there he was, my friend being so childish.
    Fast forward to today. My friend hired a graphic artist who lives in serbia. Hmmm. She sometimes talks to him about the war. She says she can’t ever sleep through the night. And my friend listened to her about her daughter’s illnesses and had some medical testing done for her. She’s full of heavy metals–gee, I wonder why. He is very kind to the artist, trying desperately to get a small biz off the ground and feeling a lot of pressure to keep her employed bc he’s become a large part of her income.
    I’m afraid to ask him how he feels about wanting to bomb this woman to get that Hitler Milosevic, but I really want to know. I wonder if he even remembers our arguments and the idiotic things he said. Or has it gone down the memory hole.

  16. The thing is–you all know that, essentially you guys are preaching/singing to the choir. Conversations like this are rare in the every day world of the teeming masses of America. And, Sibel, if you are associating with people who are talking about where their 2 kids will go to school, then you are hangin’ with the bourgeoisie. I am not of this class, however, I am extremely familiar with it. These folks are living a comfortable life, indeed.
    I invite all of you to take drive through Oakland or South Central L.A. Sibel you could inquire about Richland and Pasco, Washington—but do not go there!! It is part of the most toxic nuclear waste site in America–the infamous Hanford site. Read about their “comfort”.
    I don’t think you will find many in the above places whose lives are comfortable. In fact, there are millions upon millions of Americans lingering at or in the hell of poverty on a daily basis. I’ll just skip the masses of dysfunctional, shredded families, addictions, over-crowding, pollution and the incredible struggle millions of Americans who face simply getting a decent job. And most young Americans today have no secure upbringing with solid role models which include qualities like integrity, honesty, and some level of EMPATHY for humanity.
    Millions of adults are exhausted – burnt out; searching for some release from their pressures. Apathy is NOT self-willed by the people to whom I’m referring–they simply are focusing on their desires and needs. The Buddha said desire is at the root of suffering. If one has a deep realization, then perhaps one can give away the TV, stop eating dead animals, stop obesity, stop being a consumer, etc. But, the “catch” here is the word, realization.
    My take is that America is in a bad-ass Karmic flux. The masses of civilians will have to pay for what their tax dollars have wrought, and they will not know what hit them! Empires come and go. Now is our turn to exit the stage of this Orwellian sideshow. Of course, since I started doing activist stuff and endless research in the 60s until now, we must lean into the wind, albeit hopeless.

    • Ribbit-Mark says:

      Good point ron, about apathy not being self-willed.
      I was thinking about this last week, but you beat me to the punch in expressing it.

      The unstated assumption here by Sibel et al is that all Americans are in tune with all of the subtle and not so subtle hypocrisies that the U.S government perpetuates each day, month and year and have made a conscious decision not to do anything about it.

      I would wager that the segment of Americans who fall into this category are approximately 10% of the populace.
      These people could be said to be genuinely apathetic.

      A second equally small category of people would be those who are aware of the hypocrisy and would like to help bring about change, but don’t have the means (time-wise or financially) to make any meaningful contributions. These people are simply scraping by on a day-day basis and can’t be categorized as apathetic

      I would further wager that approximately 80% of Americans aren’t even aware of the government hypocrisy that is in a state perpetual motion.

      It follows that if you are not aware of the hypocrisy you can’t make a conscious decision to either participate in change or not participate.
      These people can’t be described as apathetic either.
      Ignorant yes, but not apathetic.

  17. Won-a-pa-lei says:

    I don’t think apathy is the sole problem. There is a palpable admiration for the military that americans seem to be adamant on holding on to, no matter the evidence of its unjustified murder of innocent lives. It is something ingrained in them generation after generation and always seems to trump “tho shall not kill”. I’ve been called an idiot, an un-american piece of trash and told I was verbally abusive just for suggesting that joining the military is a bad choice and that no one died for our freedoms. People seem to be very un-apathetic with their positions on pro-government. I believe if we really want to be activists we need to target “we the people” who are working for these oppressive government entities. If it weren’t for “we the people” carrying out these dirty deeds of the NSA, the Military Industrial Complex, the Police, Public Schools, etc., there would be no one to perform the abuse. What percentage of americans work for the government or government contractor? How many families have no member working for the government in some capacity, or accepting government subsidies. Pretty hard to bite the hand that feeds you. It’s not apathy, it’s cowardice. It’s not knowing right from from wrong.

    • ccuthbert says:

      If you haven’t read this book, you should:
      Yes, the real problem is the chains we forge ourselves.

      • As netter famously replied to my quote:

        “That benefit is that many dissidents will be tricked into hating the idea of government, genuinely representative or not. They have split the resistance by taking advantage of the people’s disdain for their own ability to empower themselves.”
        This is precisely the point of complicity between the primarily American ideology that “(big) government is bad” and modern anarchism. It’s amazing how the majority of educated people live and die babies in their political thinking. They cannot grasp the difference between “the state” and its “government.” That is between the political organization (the state) without which civilization and its progress is impossible and the question of who is in control of this organization: the exploiting elites of whatever kind or producers. Why the “anti-government” ideology has been so popular throughout the history of this country is pretty clear: both small bourgeoisie and corporate capitalism constantly produce this ideology as anti welfare state, anti-taxes and so on. Same classes though are very much pro-”government” when it comes to prisons, police, courts and federal “pork” of infinite varieties. Political anarchism in a more inclusive sense–from bohemian and semi-bohemian circles to libertarians to traditional anarchists (communists)–has little political clout but is important as ideology, especially among Western intellectuals. It is important because intellectuals, especially the mass of middling intellectuals have the social role of disseminating general ideas among other other classes. Their anarchistic tendencies flow from their situation as the dominated part of the dominant class. They have no power whatsoever, they are simply a better paid servants and this is the reason for their frustration. Hegel called it “the butler’s complex.” The butler serves his master, but he also secretly despises him. It’s the feeling of intellectual/cultural/professional superiority by the socially inferior over his socially superior. “The butler” feels superior also over his social inferiors–”the working class” who lack his professional skills, education, and cultural sophistication. Intellectual or middling professional is a socially schizophrenic being. His education and “clean” /mental occupations often of administrative kind is what he shares with his master. His powerlessness and economic unprovidedness of his existence is what he shares with “simple workers.” Both groups have to sell themselves.
        Thus squeezed between men of property and power and those on the opposite social pole, the intellectual aka butler generates anarchism of different colors and shades. He would love to destroy the state of his inferior superiors–capitalists and their bureaucrats–but he hates to submit himself to the state of his inferior inferiors –”simple workers” –without who the rule of exploiters cannot be destroyed. What communist anarchists–that is the historically progressive form of anarchism– cannot or do not want to understand is that the state is much more than a coercive force, “the executive committee of the ruling class” or whatever its numerous detractors and demonizers may attribute to it. The State taken over by producers is necessary as the instrument of mediation between them. The differences between the learned and unlearned, “professionals” and “blue-collar workers” women and men, blacks and whites, the American South, New England, and California, and on and on do not disappear with producers establishing their rule. Now the State becomes a “Council” in which they negotiate between themselves, agree on their mutual interests, and carry out their agreements in the form of state policies. Thus the New State becomes the framework for a collective self-transformation both of society as a whole and each and every individual. Only through such a state can the dream of ‘good society’ be realized.

    • You forgot to mention the evil librarians and cowardly firemen.

      • Won-a-pa-lei says:

        Yes, my points were completely invalid. Please disregard. Carry on Xicha and enjoy chasing your tail.

        • I sure won’t be chasing yours. And, isn’t going after (trying to bite) the idea of government more like chasing your own tail, since that’s the way “the people” get to the good society? Please see netter’s comment above, for clarification of misplaced aggression (towards your own tail).

          • Won-a-pa-lei says:

            My aggression is not misplaced Xicha, as I have family in the middle east. In Lebanon to be exact. Is it too much to ask for their lives to be spared from “the state”?
            I read netter’s comments and if you think we can magically get to the “good society” without completely gutting the profoundly corrupt system we have at present, then I do believe there may be something profoundly wrong with your critical thinking skills.

          • Hey, I’m all for gutting this corrupt POS! Let’s agree on that!

          • It’s not magic, it’s eternal vigilance. More accepting that it isn’t magic, actually. Government is an organizational tool that can allow the people to resist tyranny. What we have now is the tool in the hands of the tyrants. Think about the gun debate – guns don’t kill people, right?

          • And I respect your personal/family story – I think we need more people willing to make it personal.

          • Won-a-pa-lei says:

            Plenty of people make it personal. Their grandfather, father, uncle, brother, sister was/is a member of the armed forces and no one is going to tell them that they did not fight for our freedoms! And if you dare to tell them, well then, you’re an un-american piece of trash.

          • You don’t deserve that. I know exactly what you mean. I have tried to talk to neighbors who have similar convictions and know that they hold their convictions above everything else. Above comprehension and probably even the truth. Communication can be tough and sometimes a waste of time with them.

          • It’s funny how, if you don’t constantly brag about it, those folks always start to assume out loud that you don’t have family who served in the military or haven’t yourself. But not everyone is like that. It’s an extra thick layer of brainwashing they’ll never escape because they aren’t equipped. Best to just move on if possible. Unfortunately, some can’t be reached
            very easily. But you shouldn’t have to take any crap from them either. They’re supposed to be defending the constitution, so you can point out that domestic policing, and torturing and murdering American citizens with the wrong last name and without due process isn’t exactly living up to their oath. Point them to Oath Keepers for some education and a new purpose in life 😉

  18. Mark Passehl says:

    Plain murders of innocents went out around of the time of the Vietnam War, to be replaced by serial mass-murder. The most unique and bizarre feature of it is the ongoing use for several decades now of depleted uranium ordnance, which is the biggest long term killer of u.s. servicemen, quite apart from its affects upon the local populations who have to continue living on or near such contaminated war zones. But still people everywhere insist on identifying the u.s. military and something essentially u.s. In fact its entire intelligence and leadership echelons are mind-controlled legs of the GangIntern, groomed and trained with gruesome and sociopathic methods from the moment they enter college. A good number of the trainers and groomers aren’t even Americans. There is a good insider survey of the essentially gangster and assassin nature of the u.s. military, chiefly focused on political power and with selling arms and drugs in the best traditions of the British East India Shipping Co., in the online interviews with Kay Griggs ; from the point of view of a battered wife of a lunatic marine colonel, George Griggs, whose utter corruption and loyalty to the mob that made him, rather than to the u.s., seems to be the rule these days rather than the exception. All the more interesting because of her Christian and Southern background, and positive notions about the good ol’ British Empire which demonstrate a profound ignorance of how it really operated (else a willingness not to know, since the myriad of British crimes include active support of the South during the Civil War, and fostering its outbreak in the first place).

  19. Rich Winkel says:

    Isn’t apathy strongly correlated with a lack of empathy? Everyone is concerned over their own welfare so the apathy isn’t uniform, it only applies to concern for others. Empathy is learned in a child’s earliest experiences, being mothered and breast fed and having a natural birth unmolested by medical fascism. Medicine has totally uprooted traditional birth and mothering in the past 50 years based on little more than economic considerations. See

  20. Nicholas Marlowe says:

    Here are a couple of quotes (just for fun):
    “The power of accurate perception is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it” — George Bernard Shaw
    “Pessimists are those who have carefully observed the behavior of optimists” — Ambrose Bierce
    Please keep up the good work!

  21. Sam Adams says:

    This is an interesting discussion that brings up many good points. It is also encouraging to read the thoughts of those who share a common perspective. We are the minority, but we are not completely alone.

    Studies of personality profiles (Myers-Briggs, etc) have estimated that about 2/3 of the population are made up of people who think about & focus on more immediate matters which they consider to be ‘practical’. These people are not unintelligent; they often are very good at ‘thinking on their feet’. However, they do not focus on long term or ‘Big Picture’ matters which they consider too ‘theoretical’ and not very real to them. – – – Similarly, about 2/3 of the population are made up of conservative ‘rule followers’. They respect who they have been indoctrinated to consider as ‘authority figures’. They can not imagine the treachery that they have been subjected to by some of the so-called ‘elites’, because they would never consider doing such things themselves. They think ‘leaders’ are looking out for their interests & that of ‘the country’ (though this is just beginning to change).
    These immediate focus, rule following conformists make up a large portion of the population and are the vast majority in that group which makes up the regime’s enforcers – – – the police & military. (In many ways the latter are like well trained guard dogs. They are intelligent enough to do their job very well, but not aware enough to see that the evil master they obey is ordering them to attack the young woman trying to escape a Nazi concentration camp.) It is the nature of such people to resist the information that many of us try to provide them. It is not yet ‘real’ enough for them.
    Americans have been under concentrated attack for more than a century. This attack has been carried out in the ‘schools’. In the past, people learned how to think critically. They learned true American history including the founding principles of the nation (often in one room school houses). A small group of non-conformists started and fought the American Revolution. Few high school or college students know anything about this. Those who are thought critical thinking skills, for the most part, limit the application of those skills to narrow, technical subjects. Scientists, lawyers, and doctors are as ignorant about the history of America and how to evaluate political/economic issues as the general population. They are mere technicians, no matter how many years of ‘schooling’ they had, or what their incomes may be. (I have had discussion with such professionals and, at first, was quite amazed by the ignorance & naive thinking of such otherwise intelligent individuals.)

    While the American Revolution was still being fought, Thomas Jefferson warned that once the war was over, the American people would focus on their families economic well being. Because of this, he saw that the average man’s Liberty (for which many fought & sacrificed during the war) would be threatened by a small group men within government and the wealthy merchant class. Jefferson proposed that every American be provided the opportunity for a real education, including that which must be known by an informed citizenry of a democratic republic. Unfortunately, his proposal for this was rejected.

    Americans are ignorant. They are constantly lied to and subjected to intense propaganda. Most of them haven’t been provided the intellectual tools to examine and refute this propaganda so they are easily manipulated by emotional appeals. They live in a land of illusions and pretense where Hollywood and Disneyland provide the perfect metaphors. As long as they have their (heavily mortgaged) house and their kids are heading off to college (to ‘learn’ who knows what) they are ‘looking good’. And they sure don’t want anyone to rock the boat with matters that force them to reconsider these things. The Land of the Free, Home of the Brave . . . . is neither of these things today.

    Unfortunately, perhaps this condition of apathy won’t change until the majority of people feel and recognize intense personal pain. This may come as a result of another Great Depression and/or another World War. Sadly, that will mean a lot of people will die. The tendencies of the majority of the population (neither long term nor Big Picture orientated) combined with the traitorous sabotage of real education . . . has produced a nation of people locked into a juvenile mentality frozen to that of the level of high school. They parrot support or opposition to one issue or another, like high school kids would cheer or boo the battling local football teams. So US jets bomb and kill people overseas in a nation most have never hear of . . . . while they cheer “USA, USA, USA ! . . . ”

    I brought some of these issues up with someone recently and at one point they said “I love my country.”, but I knew they had really no idea what their country is or anything of significance about its history & government. They knew nothing of the ideas of such American founders as Jefferson, and how far we have strayed from them. All they had were childish slogans and symbols. It is amazing & sad that young men die for such foolish things. It is amazing and sad that their parents pound such notions into their heads since they were children.

    ‘If you expect a nation to be ignorant and free, you expect what never was and never can be.’
    – – Thomas Jefferson

  22. Marcus Packard says:

    This is a comment mainly to Sibel. If you go for a stroll with a basket and look for fruit, You’ll come home with a basket of fruit. If you look for poop, you’ll come home with a basket of poop. If your basket is full of fruit, the smell will attract people and they will like your company, if you basket is full of poop…
    We are social creatures and no matter how great an individual can be, we can me so much greater together as cells of super being. All my life has been a process of trying to relate with others which was very hard because I always found others to be extremely uninformed in many aspects of the world, life and spirituality. After 30 years, I have found that people only want my company if show them fruit in their world and in their beings, not if I show them poop. “The revolution can not be done alone” says my partner. In order to unite with others we must focus on similarities not differences, for that will only separate us.
    I love this page, it is the best I have found so far, and I love what you are doing so keep it up. Hugs

    • Marcus Packard says:

      That said, there is always a good way of saying things that could be said in a negative way. Instead of pointing out the negative and say it needs to be fixed, you can point out the positive and show how it could be even better. We all have our limits on how fast we can change our world views and how fast we can grow. No one can go from 0 to 60 instantly, we all need regular rest and love before we get back to work.

    • What if all the fruit has poop on it and nobody seems to mind? What if you then wash your own fruit, but then other people start saying that your fruit smells funny? Then you realize that all the fruit workers have been getting screwed, and that’s why… oh, never mind. Anyway, at what point do you raise your voice at all the people walking around like their fruit don’t stink?

    • Mgrdichian says:

      MARKUS SAYS: “If you go for a stroll with a basket and look for fruit, You’ll come home with a basket of fruit. If you look for poop, you’ll come home with a basket of poop. If your basket is full of fruit, the smell will attract people and they will like your company, if your basket is full of poop…”

      Very mature observation. Spot on. Indeed, how we frame our agenda is more significant than our content. And in the final analysis, those of us paying attention need to lead others to a better way and the sooner we paint the the picture of how things would look in better functioning arena, the sooner people will join in.

      • … how we frame our agenda is more significant than our content.

        Sounds like Common Core math.

        • Mgrdichian says:

          “sounds like Common Core math”

          if you look for poop…….

          • If my children’s teachers answered their questions like that, I would not be happy. What is this? Why would you be at a muckraking site telling people not to mention the poop?

            I suppose your fruit don’t stink, or so you think?

            “If you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”
            Sibel, we’ve finally found out how you can be popular! Woohoo! Now you can finally run for office and be a real leader 😉

          • The name of this site is Boiling Frogs Post, not Happy Toads Laugh-track News. That means someone is trying to tell the frogs that they’re about to get cooked, and the laugh-track isn’t real.

          • Just avert your eyes, please. And plug your nose. There is no poop!

            Look! We’re exceptional! Yay!

        • MLK would love it. It’s not the content of your character, it’s your beautiful skin!

      • Very mature observation.

        LOL – yes the basket of poop analogy is very mature. And it’s also a basket of poop. I mean fruit. Isn’t Marcus trying to pointing out poop (what others might call constructive criticism)? Or did his compliments at the end make you think it was all fruity? Kind of ironic, no?

  23. Mgrdichian says:

    XICHA: “MLK would love it.”

    I live in a black neighborhood and my black friends are quite proud of their beautiful skin and the heritage it represents. During the 1968 Sanitation Strike in Memphis the signs read “I AM A MAN” and not, “I’M NOT A SLAVE.” It was a powerful affirmation that ended up getting results, not a noisy criticism intent on getting people angry. Different language, different result.

    MLK: “Be proud of our heritage…we don’t have anything to be ashamed of.
    Somebody told a lie one day. They couched it in language. They made everything Black ugly and evil. Look in your dictionaries and see the synonyms of the word Black. It’s always something degrading and low and sinister. Look at the word White, it’s always something pure, high and clean. Well I want to get the language right tonight.
    I want to get the language so right that everyone here will cry out: ‘Yes, I’m Black, I’m proud of it. I’m Black and I’m beautiful!”

    Today, we need to get the language right, too (i.e. re-frame our position). When the “Irate Minority” is fed up with being both irate and a minority and instead wishes to be the “Empowered Majority,” then and only then will the language and goals change and their dreams become a reality.

    • Please ask your black friends if their skin is more significant than the content of their character. Remember, I never said there was anything wrong with fruit. I’m pointing out the assessment that you made, which says the framing is more significant than the content. I doubt your friends will agree with you, white or black.

      I suspect when an irate minority is no longer called for, Sibel will have better things to do with her time. Right now, many of us are concerned with accountability for some really shitty crimes.

      • Mgrdichian says:

        Right, you’re not saying fruit is not important, you’re just saying poop is more important. And if results is the goal, I wholeheartedly disagree.

        Anger breeds violence. I’m not saying that anger has never brought about change, but I am saying that in historical cases where anger brought about change it was thru violent revolution. MLK knew this which is why he was so sensitive to non-violence and always framed his activism in positive affirmations. If the “irate minority” turns into the “irate majority” I’ll argue (with historical precedent) that violence will ensue. MLK had plenty of ammunition (content) to enumerate crimes and injustice, but he chose a different framework… and the results speak for themselves.

        So I stand by my assessment that framing a position to affirm something is more significant in bringing about constructive peaceful change than is sufficiently-documented anger.

        You’ve stated your goal: accountability. Accountability happens all the time without any real change (think Enron or drunk driving). We don’t need any more of that. Positive change will bring with it meaningful accountability, but not necessarily the other way around.

        I’ve had plenty of conversations with my black friends. What do they say? “It’s a moot question. My skin is my character and my character is my skin… and I’m proud of it and it doesn’t make me better or worse than anyone else.” Their grasp of their historical struggle and how it molds their identity is noteworthy, which is one reason I like hanging and living among them.

        • Mgrdichian says:

          The “content” versus “framework” argument can be plainly seen in the “MLK” vs. “Malcolm X” argument of the 1960’s. Malcolm focused on the injustice and anger and MLK focused on a new mindset. Malcolm wasn’t wrong, but his approach handicapped his effectiveness. One could argue both were necessary and both were martyred for their positions. But history has proven it was MLK who transformed society.

          Framework is everything.

          • Hey, if the question is moot, then why make the comparison and judgement in the first place? I’m interested in solutions which involve eternal vigilance for peace and justice for all. I think the framework is a natural part of the content as well.

            Maybe you can agree that framework can lose it’s connection to content and start becoming more about success, winning, and popularity? The judgement you made at the beginning is somewhat different than ‘the question is moot’. BTW, nowI keep thinking of Jesse Jackson on the SNL game show after he said that in the presidential debates. The question is moot!

          • Liberty and justice for all. My mind was in the 80’s when I went to peace and justice meetings with my mom and we met Jesse at the local Howard Johnson.

        • Right, you’re not saying fruit is not important, you’re just saying poop is more important

          Again, if there is poop on the fruit, it must take priority. People must eat clean fruit, not poop fruit, like fruit loops. In the cleaning of the fruit, the concern for the fruit should be apparent.

  24. Sam Adams says:

    Hmmmm . . . how to you say in a sunny way that your country has been taken over by criminal psychopaths that threaten all life on the planet ?

    You can frame it ‘soft’ or frame it ‘hard’. If someone refuses to listen to you, it doesn’t matter. Many of us have tried to present this information, but many people actively & aggressively want to remain ignorant. They don’t want their illusions of comfort to be exposed. Hollywood & Disneyland seem to be perfect metaphors for America today… nothing of real substance below the surface.
    If we could magically snap our fingers so that every adult American fully understood what has happened to this country . . . it would end the tyranny within a week. Unfortunately, human beings seem to require intense pain to make a real change. Historically, that has cost the lives of millions. People followed Hitler, Stalin, and Mao . . . right to their destruction.

  25. Mgrdichian says:

    Those of you who can’t understand the huge difference between the “I AM A MAN” and “I’M NOT A SLAVE” paradigms are the same people who admittedly (on this thread) are failing in their attempts to enlighten people and are likewise more concerned with accountability than with empowering people. I typically don’t model my actions on the advice of people who are failing.

    I, on the other hand, have measurable success in opening people’s eyes with an empathetic approach to where people are at in their lives and I’ve had some very enriching experiences with my approach and working with like-minded activists. I’ve seen first hand how one or two compassionate activists can make some real headway while a dozen or more of the “angry minority” sit on the sidelines (or hang out on blogs) and masturbate and call it activism.

    So, no worries. I’m good. Thanks, but no thanks.

    • Sounds like somebody is getting angry and pointing out some poop! You’re obviously a real winner, but, I thought the question was moot?

    • Would you like me to point out the many logical fallacies in your last rant? Or are you Mr. Dish it out, but can’t take it? Your a real moot fruit pooper, you know that?

  26. Nicholas Marlowe says:

    So why are many Americans so afraid of passionate avowal? Perhaps the Boiling Frog Principle is in play : Bit by bit, not only the content of our speech (as in PC), but now the manner in which we speak has to be approved and regulated.
    Perhaps many of you have seen Allan Weisbecker’s film “Water Time” — I think it’s a good presentation of the some of the topics discussed here – and it’s a beautifully passionate movie!
    As for style and manner of speech; some of my favorite models are those provided by Sibel Edmonds, Patrick Henry, and Alex Jones.

    • Sam Adams says:

      Good point Nicholas Marlowe. You would think that people who are purposely being murdered (by wars, poisonous foods, poisonous meds, & a poisonous environment etc) would at least be a little ‘upset’ at this, wouldn’t you ?
      I certain percentage of the population have a ‘head in the clouds’ personality. They think that not recognizing evil will make it disappear. They don’t want to even think that there are actually bad men in the world. – – As for the rest of the population, they have been subjected to over a century of sophisticated brainwashing from the public ‘schools’ and the media. They really think the country as the way they have been taught and as depicted on t.v. and in the movies. And they were, purposely, kept way from the critical thinking skills that would enable them to see through this.
      They have been taught to get angry over a football game . . . but not over anything that matters.

  27. Has the Dept. of Homeland Security Become America’s Standing Army?:

    This article sums up chillingly well what I think the real threat of the NSA is. The NSA is the snout, but the DHS is the teeth. What I feel hasn’t been internalized even among the more well informed, is the fact that there’s been preparation going on in the background in anticipation for the tipping point when various factors, most likely economic, push people to the brink of what they’re willing to tolerate. When people finally decide to organize and protest, the DHS is going to let the dogs off the leash and McGruff has been provided with a very flexible definition of what it means to take a bite out of “crime”. (whoops, I meant “terrorism”). I have to be honest, this scares the crap out of me, but maybe that’s what’s needed. Perhaps the purpose of the Snowden leaks has been to trivialize the nature of the disclosures to something the public can feign righteous indignation at over crumpets and tea, while the part which might make this information real for people would be looking at these surveillance capabilities in the context of a DHS which is lurking like a gorilla in the back of an arts and crafts store.

  28. Right on, BennyB. Well said. The snout and the teeth. Now who exactly are the brains, if this beast has any? And would you prescribe electro – convulsive therapy, a lobotomy, or putting the crazed animal down? I’d kind of like to put it in a cage at the Museum of Un-Natural History.

  29. mariotrevi says:

    I was thinking that Sibel knows far too much about Iran since 1950 to be taken-in by American niceties: she was in Iran on a Black [name of the week] near the end of the reign of the Shah. So, it takes a lot of exposure to signicant events or serious study to become as profoundly disillusioned as the “irate minority” is with main-stream messaging.
    Just an idea…

  30. mariotrevi says:

    I’ve watched many hours of a mainstream media NewsHour program in French on the the TF1 Network, and the news-show is called “Le 20h”, “The 8pm”. There are several protests on France: about new school schedule, labour protests, “support for Gaza” protests, and so on. It’s almost as if protesting in France was “no big deal”: it’s up to you. I also see more collectivism, pro-Unions speech and similar.
    There’s also the comedian Dieudonne M’ballah M’ballah (roughly) who is an open critic of “Jewish lobby” or “Jewish influence” in media and political circles. He’s still alive. His followers are mostly 20-30 year olds, and his “gesture of the quenelle” has been a topic for French News:
    Quenelle gesture, including illustration:

    • The whole “Jews own the media” is a tired argument. The wealthy and the interests they represent own the media, Jewish or not. The ownership of the media may be disproportionately “Jewish”, but the extent that this becomes a meme is disproportionate as well. Dieudonne M’bala M’bala’s remarks about the “Jewish lobby” and “Jewish influence” in the media aren’t surprising coming from somebody who calls Jews “the biggest crooks on the planet” and makes Holocaust jokes in his standup comedy routines. French citizens are right, standing in solidarity with the majority of the rest of the world in calling for an end to the latest genocidal Israeli rampage in Gaza, and hopefully the scale of the current atrocities, will help push public opinion towards demanding an end to the brutal, racist occupation of Palestinian land, which the current “war” is a symptom of.

      I despise those who deflect legitimate criticism of Israel by labeling it as anti-semitism and I also despise those who hide antisemitism behind criticism of Israel. I not sure whether I understood this comment, or the other one for that matter as a whole, so I’m not sure where you’re coming from, but my advice is; don’t get it twisted.

      • mariotrevi says:

        The point of the comment was to illustrate that protests are common in France. About the school schedule reform, it’s brought protests from parents and teachers, such as can be seen here (Paris):

        Does Dieudonne incite to anti-semitism? Is he himself anti-semite? I feel I’m not qualified to answer.

        And the question I’d like to bring up is: what are some countries where apathy isn’t the norm?

        • Thanks for clarifying. I think your question about which countries apathy isn’t the norm is a good one to consider. Additionally, asking what are the elements of protest which are actually successful in bringing about tangible change is probably even more of an important question worth exploring some more. Often economic considerations are a leading factor which contribute to unrest or facilitate change. International condemnation towards any platform or set of political policies is not without value, however it seems that placing a price tag (so to speak) on sustaining these policies is sometimes what seems to be required to reach a tipping point.

          The BDS movement to end apartheid in South Africa was an important element of putting a price tag on sustaining a policy of institutionalized racism. That said, similar efforts directed towards Israel are probably one of the more useful steps which can be taken to address the conflict there as well. During the Vietnam war, a gradual increase in awareness among Americans of what kind of horrors the military campaign was visiting upon the Vietnamese civilian population had an effect on public opinion, however it was the more personal impact of the prospect of continuing to draft Americans to sacrifice their lives for a war without “victory” which probably held the most sway in ushering in an end to the war. Selfish as this may seem, it often requires having a situation affect us directly to compel us to take action in response.

          Martin Luther King, in the year preceding his assassination, became a threat to the establishment when he emphasized the incompatibility of financing endless immoral military operations abroad with our capacity as a nation to address the concerns of our own citizens. America may have taken some preliminary strides in realizing King’s dream, but by all measurable accounts we’re still tossing and turning with the pillow over our head when it comes to addressing the military industrial complex. King’s untimely death should serve as message as to how threatening and thus how powerful the idea of societies awakening to the idea that, to quote Dr. King: “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.”
          … Sorry to break it up here, but I just had a pretty hilarious visual of that obnoxious skeleton from Tales From The Crypt wearing the Uncle Sam outfit and cackling in response to that quote… Terrible I know, but sometimes laughing is the best you can do to keep from crying…

          So all jokes aside… on your main thought, mariotrevi I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. Regarding M’bala’s remarks and the controversy surrounding them: I took into account your inclusion of him in the context of observing alternative French news resources for different perspectives as a sign that you’re not quite sure what to make of his remarks, or in your words, ‘not qualified’ to do so. On these grounds I felt compelled to explain that, while there may be some ambiguity for you surrounding statements referring specifically to the “Jewish lobby” or “Jewish interests”, in the context of the other examples of comments M’bala’s I cited: calling Jews “the biggest crooks on the planet” and making Holocaust jokes in his standup comedy routines, I figured that ought to have provided you with adequate tools to determine his remarks are ant-semitic and not great conversation pieces here at BFP whether you’re “qualified to answer” or not. M’bala’s entitled to say what he wants on his own time and if you want to entertain that kind of crap it’s on you, but if you intend to drop it in the middle of a discussion here and ask people what they think about it, don’t be surprised when I flush it down the toilet. No hard feelings, but I hope I’ve made my point a bit more clearly this time around.

  31. mariotrevi says:

    I now think Dieudonne has made many racist, anti-Jewish, comments during his shows.

    • This is an excellent video which provides some critical insight into the pro-Israel Zionist lobby and its influence on American foreign policy.

      Just to be very clear, the last thing I want to do personally here at BFP and elsewhere is discourage criticism of Israel and the pro-Israel, Zionist lobby. The distinction that I want to make is the fact that Israeli and Zionist interests aren’t the same things as Jewish interests. Jewish interests, like anyone else’s can’t be quantified and categorized. On a personal level, the stereotypes about Jews and “Jewish interests” get tiresome. Anyway, this is loosely in response to mariotrevi, but I highly recommend this video for all to check out.

      Here’s an excerpt from the description:

      Retired CIA analysts Bill and Kathleen Christison talk about the State of Israel’s influence on the United States, focusing on the Zionist lobby that has grown steadily in the United States since the administrations of Roosevelt and Truman.

      and here’s the link:

    • Hi mariotrevi, the Dieudonné topic has just pop up again on the Corbett Report site, BennyB told me that you started a thread there that I missed few month ago, so I’d like to address that. Dieudonné has indeed made provocative jokes on Jew (a few) on Zionists (more) such as on Whites, Black, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, Homosexuals, Women, or what have you. He is not only in the provocation, he can be more subtle or poetic, but when his is provocative he can go very far, with no mercy for no community whether they are Jews or not.

      I believe he is a genuine opponent to the establishment, he is the most visible figure of a wide (and growing) grassroot movement that we call the Dissidence. They understood very well the systems, they are what we call the irate minority, and they became a real threat to the establishment who was seriously shaken last year. As the establishment has no argument to oppose, it attempts to “racialize” the debate by calling them anti-semite, by making dishonest selection of Dieudonné phrases (picking only provocative stuff against Jews) to portray him as an anti-semite.

      I think that the French Dissidence is a very good answer to that apathy problem, it’s mature, it’s big, and the establishment is really freaking out about it. IMHO it’s something that shouldn’t be disregarded by the non-French speaking irate minority, but as it’s almost impossible to understand without a significant amount of and translation, I took the initiative to make an interview of the dissident novelist Jacob Cohen, documented with more than 200 sourced references:

      It’s a bit long, I know, but I think it’s what it takes to grasp the topic. First episodes are mostly contextualization, we enter the core of the topic from episodes 4~5 (I’ve been told it’s more entertaining from there, it compensates the length :-p). I hope this will give inspiration, knowledge (e.g. new non-violent strategies of awakening and resistance) and hope!


      • Thanks Camille for weighing in on the subject! The video series profoundly affected my understanding of the controversy around Dieudonné and I think this a perfect case study of how skillfully the Zionists manage to manipulate people’s opinion through their propaganda. I’m f##king furious, but I’ll try to keep it focused!

        I wasn’t familiar with Diuedonné before this conversation, but I reacted to the phrasing of “Jewish interests” and the “Jewish lobby” in ways I’ve already explained. Having gotten a feel from the videos you posted, @Camille, I now recognize mariotrevi’s comments appear to reflect the terminology which is part of the current French discourse which differs from the language used here. On that note, @mariotrevi, I apologize for coming down on you unnecessarily harshly. I hope at least I adequately addressed what it was about the terminology I found problematic.

        Although I’m not religious, as someone who’s Jewish, I’ve always felt I have a moral obligation to state very clearly that I reject the idea that Israel represents the interests or ideals of the Jewish people. I particularly detest the manipulative and immoral appropriation of Holocaust memory as a means to justify the racist colonial Zionist enterprise, which the Palestinians have suffered immeasurably under since well before the British gave Israel the keys to the car in 1948. So, with this being the case it’s particularly unnerving that this Holocaust manipulation is precisely the type of snare I unwittingly stepped into here with respect to Diuedonné!

        After reacting to mariotrevi’s comments about “Jewish interests” and the “Jewish lobby”, not knowing anything about Diuedonné, I decided to look into what his deal was, suspecting the phrasing I mentioned which I found objectionable might have something to do with Diuedonné’s views. Not surprisingly, I encountered numerous examples of inflammatory anti-Semitic rhetoric, with varying levels Anti Defamation League style alarmism, but I tried to look for some at least relatively nuanced perspectives, wary of the typical Zionist smear tactics and not being at the advantage of speaking French. What convinced me (at the time) that there was some substance behind the accusations were descriptions of comedy routines where he used references to Jews and the Holocaust in particular, in ways which, lost in translation or not, I just didn’t find funny or appropriate at all.

        While, in retrospect, I still find some of these jokes to be in poor taste, it’s impossible to make an objective assessment about them without understanding the political context of the state of dissidence in France, particularly around the type of Holocaust manipulation which is being used by the French political elites to “defend” Israel. I thought the Zionist propaganda apparatus in the United States was bad, but the way it’s being used in France is on a whole different plateau! It’s quite disturbing and it’s only really through this context which you can truly appreciate the phenomenon beyond Diuedonné, who I have a newfound respect for as true representative of the irate minority; saying f##k you to the sort of fascistic Zionist French establishment, which, @Camille, your video series helped bring me up to speed on (Thanks again :-).

        There’s much more that I’d like to address along the lines of coming up with strategies for confronting the Zionist propaganda narrative more effectively in the discourse, but for now I’ll leave it here.

        As embarrassing as having put my foot in my mouth in this instance, I think the lessons learned (at least for me) have been somewhat humbling and some more food for thought, so I thank you both.

  32. mariotrevi says:

    I’m sorry for using the wrong words, BennyB; I’m thinking of referring to “Israeli interests” in the future.

    • Don’t worry about it mariotrevi, I can see now that it was clearly an issue around terminology, not intention 🙂 The terminology is important though, so I think referring to “Israeli interests” in the future is a good move which will make it perfectly clear for people where you’re coming from.

  33. Dennis Vance says:

    The opposite of Love is not Hate; it’s APATHY…..

    • If A + B = 0
      And B + C = 0
      Then A = C
      Does apathy = hate?
      Is apathy also the opposite of hate?
      Does love = hate?

      While apathy can be detrimental, can’t it also be helpful, depending on the context and evaluator? Doesn’t intention have any value or meaning?

      It seems like your equation is context and evaluator dependent, to me. But, I think that your intention has meaning; I think I know what you intended, because I can imagine a context that would allow such an evaluation. It does require qualification though. 🙂

  34. Oregon has a 9/11 Truth Candidate on the ballot for US House of Representatives, Dist. 5 (Salem, Willamette Valley, Central Oregon Coast). Independent Party Candidate MARVIN SANNES. Apathy ! I can tell you about apathy. Tell everyone you know and VOTE!

  35. Akihito Mekata says:

    Hi, this is Aki, again. I like those round table, but as English is not my nature language, not everything are understood but I became to learn critical thinking as today’s world, flood of TV information tend to deprive to think by yourself so nowadays, I rarely watch TV but rather hear you tube including boiling frog, which is mind boggling at first time but as I listen many of those, I become used to hearing those conversation and understand which I agree to most of those conversations.

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